Exh utrgtffeedfftt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-consumerism#Criticism Moontouch
Agreed.
Greed is good / War on drugs (criminalization rather than health issue) / Trickle down economics
This pseudo Christian insanity that tied economics and social issues to morality in 1980 forward is what has led us here in so many ways. We created a society in which the need for government protections were deemed more often than not as a moral failing. And why would we want to help bad people?
It’s led to massive wealth inequality and a country that imprisons more of its citizenry than any other nation on earth. All under the guise of “freedom”.
The cognitive dissonance is strong for anyone with even a brief touch with reality.
And recently we’ve stepped up the xenophobic, racist, and religious based hate to the mix. Leading to the kidnapping of thousands with state sponsored policies among others. (Btw I have no idea how the entire country hasn’t revolted over this one item. Forget impeachment. This alone should have led to revolution. And I go to bed each night feeling as if I’m partially to blame for crimes against humanity for not doing more to stop it.)
We’ve become a nation of blaming the other guy and as long as they’re not coming for me personally then it’s ok. We may not have always been perfect with acting on our values as Americans but at least we used to pretend to be the good guys. Now our values have been twisted into something dark and hateful.
I love my country but I don’t recognize a lot of what has become normal these days. It deeply saddens me.
haven't really thought about it too much but, now that you mention it, I think I'd like to learn more about common behaviors in LGBT relationships that are rooted in childhood exposure to sexism and homophobia. Maybe also on intersectionality and how POC experience queerness differently.
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shitlib say
shitneoconssay
rightwinglgbt
gencrit
consumeproduct
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rw bad prog good rebuttal, anti whig hist
expand anarchism post jail
perpetuating injustice disqualifies the state from punishing, we look at whether any of us have the right to punish anyone else, and question the very purpose
the fact that he didn't just kill anyone he saw but specifically members of the NLP. Fascism isn't an inextricable part of human biology, it's a reaction to material conditions that ideally wouldn't exist in an anarchist society. The same is true with most forms of right-wing extremism. They're most often born from communities stricken by poverty and bad education, and grow within a cultural echo chamber of people suffering the same ailments. Reduce poverty, improve education, and you reduce extremism. Breivik never happens
Maybe the community would get the Marijuana user put into a system with a reconciliation process that includes/support (where everyone in those Marijuana users life would contribute, including and especially the Marijuana users), therapy and counseling. The Marijuana users who are caught would be treated ethically with respect.
Delduthling
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2 yr. ago
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In my experience there's two ways the term "anti-idpol leftist" gets used.
The first is to describe leftists who think that a left politics based purely around identity issues but which neglects economic structures and class is counterproductive and ultimately supports the capitalist status quo - such leftists tend to be critical of liberals who use identity politics in bad faith to attack socialists and even social democrats. In this sense, it's basically a pejorative. It's very possible to be a fully fledged socialist demanding structural economic change who also recognizes that oppression on the basis of race, gender, and sexuality are intertwined with capitalist power structures. The project of "woke capitalism" can never make good on its promises of liberation.
The second use is to describe a smaller subset of leftists who really do think that all identity politics isn't real or isn't worth integrating into a leftist project, and who might even have some conservative social beliefs, particularly around issues like immigration. They absolutely do want to abandon any sort of anti-racism or LGBT activism in favour of a purely class-based politics. This type is significantly rarerer, I think, but it's absolutely a real group of people - cynical at best and actively hateful at worst. Glenn Greenwald, who recently described Steve Bannon, Tucker Carlson, and circa-2016 Donald Trump as "socialists," strikes me as one of this type, at least recently.
The problem, I think, is that there are a lot of economically conservative liberals who throw this label around rather indescriminately to smear a lot of real socialists as Nazbol or class reductionists or crypto-fash or whatever, especially if they don't kowtow to liberal conceptions of civility, and what that can produce is a defensive mindset that makes actual distinctions between genuine socialists with critiques of purely liberal idpol and nationalists-in-socialist-clothing harder to draw. This gets even messier insofar as a lot of very-online leftists have a tendency to get into very-online arguments and sectarian infighting.
EDIT: To be super clear I think Lindsay's tweet (if I have the right one) is very clearly targeting the second group - she's
Sexual Socialist
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7 yr. ago
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"Anti-consumerism" needs to be further defined. The consumerism in which the commodity rules society and where human relations are conducted based on commodity fetishism is the kind of consumerism all socialists should oppose. On the other hand, center-left/liberal anti-consumerism where it is believed that fighting commodification is a radical path to ushering in a new type of society is a sociologically naive view
Thoughts on anti-consumerism?
I've been thinking a lot lately about anti-consumerism and just wondering what people here think about it, because there seems to be a lot of disagreement about it in socialist circles. I'm of the opinion that consumerism is ultimately a good thing, ideas about it alienating us from nature are New Age hogwash. While it is obvious that advertising does manipulate us into buying things we don't need, the kind of widespread hypnotism anti-consumerists see isn't really occurring. The problem with capitalism is the exploitation of the proletariat and the environment. This seems to have been Marx's view as well from what I can tell. Marx sees consumerism as one of the big humanizing aspects of capitalism and one that would continue to exist, and actually increase under socialism, but of course without ads telling us we need to sanitize our hands every 10 minutes or we'll die. The development of renewable energy also seems to suggest that consumerism can potentially exist without exploiting the environment, and if there are future advances in biotechnology and nanotechnology, we might not need to change our consumption habits at all, and may be able to even reconstruct damaged ecosystems.
The anti-consumerist movement covers a wide range of ideological ground. Although it is stereotyped as socialist, Marxist, anarchist, etc. there are plenty of capitalists and fascists who hold anti-consumerist beliefs. The contemporary anti-consumerist movement seems to mostly be a middle class movement that hates the proletariat as much as it hates the bourgeoisie.
Is this the overall feeling of the subreddit, or do people here oppose consumerism as well as the things socialists traditionally dislike about capitalism
While Kaepernick’s struggle against the racist and exploitative NFL owners and executives is, of course, legitimate and necessary, the co-optation of his struggle by a large corporation is certainly a cause for concern. Nike is notorious for its use of sweatshop labour (including both forced and child labour), and its history of exploitative labour practices has been well-documented throughout the years. Nike presents itself as a progressive vehicle for Black emancipatory politics, while completely sidelining the plight of non-white workers outside of the US.
Everything and anything anti-neolib is "far right", including actual marxism to these people. Did you forget "class reductonists are racist and homophobic1!!1!" already?
All preparation for the cyborgist/transhumanist future when people will be “free” by spending any time not working inside some Metaverse-esque hellscape where they can identify as their “real selves” whether that’s a fursona, some “neurogender”, an inanimate object, an anime character, or whatever they please so long as they consoom product and don’t buy guns or think about actually revolting in any way that would require logging off Web 4.0.
What has happened is that the right and left have swapped places in some ways. I think it's because the liberals are dominant in the official culture where conservatives were (relatively more) dominant thirty years ago. So that the oppositional movement goes against whatever the official ideology is.
Big list of opinions that used to be left wing and now are somehow apparently right-wing!
Feynmanprinciple
We're all fucking dead
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5 days ago
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It really weirds me out how on economic issues, they're by and large socialist. People need food, shelter, clothing, and we mostly have that but even more is the psychological damage that living in poverty does to people. But when it comes to love and relationships, liberals are hypercapitalist and individualistic. If you cannot find love, there is something wrong with you intrinsically and either you must pull yourself up by the bootsraps or accept that you're trash. The monogamous marriage culture ensured equitable distribution of partnerships and family, but we're slowly regressing back to a system where those with the most social and sexual capital hoard the sexual wealth
I try to show over there is basically how the Enlightened People (tm) with their absolute want for validation but at the same time do Fuck You I Got Mine & Fuck You My Validation First are practically the capitalist' legalized hypergreed, just transplanted to social issues.
It really weirds me out how on economic issues, they're by and large socialist. People need food, shelter, clothing, and we mostly have that but even more is the psychological damage that living in poverty does to people. But when it comes to love and relationships, liberals are hypercapitalist and individualistic. If you cannot find love, there is something wrong with you intrinsically and either you must pull yourself up by the bootsraps or accept that you're trash. The monogamous marriage culture ensured equitable distribution of partnerships and family, but we're slowly regressing back to a system where those with the most social and sexual capital hoard the sexual wealth.
This positions are completely unsustainable. Not only that, this position is actually beneficial to neoliberalism. It's basically "Fuck you I got mine" being put to social, political and moral issue.
Because why the fuck would you get taxed or give significant portion of your effort, wealth etc to people you absolutely hate.
Confront those people you mention with the fact that you have to fund those you hate etc, see how quickly they'll turn libertarian.
This is where I disagree with leftists today - because in reality, left economics REQUIRES collectivism on the level alien to most people today. Religious cults can create actual real socialism or something close to it far more than present day "modern" people.
Look at them and tell me how they have the necessary altruism and necessary collectivism required to do actual real socialism.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/xt6kxy/one_thing_that_really_bothers_me_about_current/
https://hardcrackers.com/survey-police-killings-race-class/
https://replicationindex.com/2019/09/27/poverty-explain-racial-biases-in-police-shootings/
understood what was so wrong about appropriating culture. It is what differentiates the idealistic melting pot from the cultural salad bowl we have now in America
https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=61403
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/brands-corporate-publicity-racial-justice
https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/sbfru8/woke_capitalism_isnt_your_friend_brands_like/
When a politician comes out with a tax plan, journalists and analysts look at it and say, “does this tax plan add up? Does it have the markings of an effective tax plan?” They’ll poke holes in it - yes, if it’s from the other party, but also if it’s from their own. Because they know we need tested and robust tax plans. But when Ibram Kendi says, “all of my vague recriminations and radical-sounding racialist woowoo is the solution to racism,” every journalist and analyst you know scratches their beard and says, “ah yes, indeed,” and they don’t even say that very loudly. But where’s the proof that any of Kendi’s rhetoric actually leads to any action at all? That such action does/could prompt positive change? Who is checking his work? What has Ibram Kendi’s ideology accomplished, beyond enriching Ibram Kendi? Can we point to, like, a graph that shows the outcome of his good works? It certainly seems that we can’t. Since this is the case, why does 95% of the journalism that references Kendi make literally no mention of the basic concept of efficacy?
If anyone knows what the public can do to those who fail to float the mainstream, it's journalists & the powers that tell them what to report. They're terrified for individual career succession over responses to truthfully informing readers...well I mean that's what it's always been. But more so ever with that frightful demon hanging overhead "cancel culture", they're horrified. Absolutely dreading anything to push against the orthodox.
Cancel Culture” is only a problem because of employment-at-will.
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ONE_GUY_ONE_JAR
Libertarian Socialist (Nordic Model FTW)
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1 yr. ago
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r/byebyejob has to be one of the saddest places on Reddit.
Uh-oh, you just did a no-no! You did a racism! Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences, honey! Have fun being unemployable and a social pariah forever.
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☀️ Marxist-Leninist 9
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2 yr. ago
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Reminds me of plutocracy(great documentary) when they were talking about old factories mixing in immigrants to create language barriers and distrust. Staying divided helps capitalism, but some dont understand that most anti idpol socialists know this and want unity, they just dont think that screaming "white privilege" at people from inside an ivory tower is unifying behavior.
When the whole BLM thing started, I was suspicious that people were making such a big deal about a relatively rare phenomenon. (Why weren't people protesting systemic poverty, the real culprit?) A lazy Google search indicates that only about 1000 people are killed each year in the US by police. I've always suspected that the police are more likely to kill poor people (regardless of race). My logic was that, since black people are more likely to be poor, they are overrepresented in the statistics on police killings. So, police were not killing blacks at a greater rate than whites because they had a racial bias, but rather because blacks are more likely to be poor (and thus more likely to be involved in crime, drugs, etc...basically all the "bad" things that are a result of systemic poverty).
Now, I have never researched this myself, it was just a "hunch" that I had. But yesterday I came across these two articles that talk about exactly this. I have never heard of these sources before so I am not sure if they are "credible", but I found them both rather interesting
Boy does that pamphlet look like it was written by a white supremacist.
Also gotta love them claiming monotheism in general and Christianity in particular are white, despite the fact that over half of the world's Christians live outside of Europe and North America or that half of the entire world is either Christian or Muslim and so believe in only one God
Dave
We had one chance and we blew it
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2 yr. ago
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American liberals tend to confuse having good politics with being a good person. . . which is the root of much of their political errors.
"If I'm a good person, my politics must be good politics, therefore I can't mistakes". And how is that working out for you, son
intboom
Butlerian Jihadi 💩
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2 yr. ago
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Robin DiAngelo's goal is explicitly to create a "white racial consciousness". How is she not considered a fucking Nazi by the mainstream?
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SquashIsVegan
Imagines There’s No Flairs, It’s Easy If You Try
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2 yr. ago
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Judith Katz put out better Klan propaganda than the Klan ever did and got it published by the fucking Smithsonian. I had to do a deep googling to make sure I wasn't being trolled when I saw that shit.
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Tharkun
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2 yr. ago
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Was she the one who created that flier stating hard work and independence were "white traits"?
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SquashIsVegan
Imagines There’s No Flairs, It’s Easy If You Try
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2 yr. ago
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https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/926/d5f/a334baf0d43cd480b3ea93582d7e80f8dc-white-culture.w710.jpg
Goes way beyond just that. According to her, "objective, rational, linear thinking" is a part of a distinctly white culture. Planning for the future is white culture. Delayed gratification is white culture. Having a father and mother unit is white culture (event though studies have shown this correlates with "success" across racial lines). Being polite is white culture. Attempting to "be #1" is white culture. And in a Chappelle's Show level of satire, apparently "following rigid time schedules" is white culture.
This was actually seriously put out by the Smithsonian. I can imagine seeing something like this on a poster during the Civil Rights era in a southern town, put there by the Klan trying to convince moderate people that black people could never be part of their town.
It is so racist. It takes a lot to shock me, but this really did in the context of where it came from and who was behind it. Like I said, I spent like fifteen minutes rapidly researching because I refused to believe this was real.
I don’t care if Russia hacked DNC emails
es even more from average people. Tankies have to learn that no, revolution isn’t coming soon in America. Revolution is very likely not happening even in fifty years from now, let’s be real with ourselves. And there are accelerationists out there that even promote putting the worst people in power, so it can further speed up the revolution. Accelerationism is horseshit and their idea will not bring forth a revolution quickly, at all.
https://twitter.com/sameerakhan/status/842948904949833729
https://mobile.twitter.com/SameeraKhan/status/1464406285407895554
Ramzan Kadyrov
US conservatives: Communism and liberalism are the same. US liberals: Communism and fascism are the same.
Bernie Sanders may not have done anything for the “political revolution,” but he certainly did a lot for my political evolution.
am against NGO Imperialism
I uphold all identity groups snd their cultures equally who are in danger if being destroyed by globalization, cultural imperialism etc in addition to native religions. I am against this Western imperslism and I support those groups who are struggling against it
I support diversity as I feel our world’s true wealth is the diversity of cultures and peoples. Even if bicultural diversity has negatives, diversity should be welcomed , maintained and cultivated.
I am against the new class. Western society through globalization promotes a global ruling class through logico symbolic manipulations of the existing systems that are in place.
They do this via global laissez faire Capitalism, globalism , and institutionalized imperialism. This new class gentrifies the world creating superficial detaches cyborgs so to speak
It is wrong due to being indifferent to history, abstract individualism , lack of culture and detachment from reality and leads to corruption and globalization. They use power to distance themselves from the average citizen so they don’t need to justify their actions. They breed impersonal labor leading to less quality (which is why cars made eons ago were better than modern cars). With less private public meshing, the less individual is rewarded and recognized which forces people to fill a role .New class depersonalizes western leadership and lowers their responsibility.
The New class is ineffective , counter productive and a waste. It closes in on itself causing public hostility at the elite. For major social issues, there is a gap between these rulers and their governed via technocratic means. The media also plays a part in this and deepens it. We see this with the bourgeois and rulers via double talk, virtue signaling, capital indulgence, bottom of the social ladder, struggles of daily life, nihilism , and the wants for common values.
This leads to anti elitism by the public leading to cynicism. We need more structural autonomy to help the true desires of people on the lower part of that social ladder. This would give them the ability to make or remake specific nomoi. We must create a user friendly society where we avoid anonymity, value commodification and social reification. We would need direct democracy or Democratic Con federalism to do this
1. Against Indifferentiation and Uprooting; For Clear and Strong Identities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjurb61SZgk
I am against indiff..
Homogenization causes the evils of national chauvinism, tribal behavior, irredentism, etc. This is due to globalization, which is responsible for this junk. Western bred self affirming behavior is the result of taking away the rights of individuals to find their identity within a collective and historic framework, uniformity representing people through imposition etc. Now it is sameness that replaces fear of the other.
Modernity has taken away social systems that helped people know their place in society. This leads to people needing their identity affirmed in society and the public square . Modernity has not met these needs identity needs as international tourism don’t fix these problems but instead buries them (see lifestyle blog for more)
I affirm differences which are not transitory that lead to some higher echelon of unity nor are accidental parts of personal lives
These differences are the fabric of the social sphere. It can be political or non political but closer to the individual.
Being a citizen means a sense of belonging and commitment to different levels of public life.
Whether it is at the local level, city level, state level , geographic region level , national level, or more. This is in accordance to devolved power at each of these sovereign levels
We are not global citizens, since that is abstract and abstract is of the bourgeois liberal class
All people should have their causes upheld. This is due to the right of difference and its generalness which emboldens it.
It is justified only in defending a persons difference from other people if the person is in turn able to defend the difference in others. This means people cannot use the right of difference to exclude people who are different.
Combine this with this “ People have a right to be wrong. That the right to personally discriminate--that is make your own decisions, based upon your own lights--is the very essence of liberty (which retroactively was wrong to allow that 'right'); while Governmental denial of that right, goes to the very essence of tyranny. Individual moral views notwithstanding, freedom to choose ("discrimination") is our right and our privilege no matter how flawed and evil it is. Humans are biased by nature, people tend to want to be around people who are like them. I hope humans can evolve one day where this isn't the case, but it is. As long as it is, we can't crucify racists and anti semeties unless they do hate crimes/terrorism or try to get others do hate crimes/terrorism.”
Immigration has its drawbacks like forced uprooting , which is due in part to sponteanous or organized economic movements in poor countries . Western civilization with its consumerism and deprecation of indigenous cultures feeds into that. Industrialized cultures reduce people to merchandise which can be sold anywhere. Immigration is not ideal for migrants as they are forced to leave all they call home and way of life for another country where they are backups who are exploited for financial gain. Migration also has drawbacks for natives of those countries migrant move to which force those countries at tines to modify their cultures and ways of life for them in terms of their environments. I am support more restrictive immigration with increased cooperation with third world countries with sustainable independence and traditions to fight against globalization . This link also expands on that
Ethno culture identity should be recognized in public and relegated to private domain. This why I support communitarianism. Communitarianism spares people from losing touch with their cultural roots and allows them to keep alive the structures of their collective lives.They can and should observe the laws of the land without abandoning their personal culture and this could very well dissociate the citizenship from nationality
I am against the TPP
CC
I support Sameera Khan’s right to ‘glorify’ Josef Stalin’s gulags in her tweet years ago because I respect freedom of speech. I believe that in some alternate realities , Stalin’s gulags were fine and humane, but of course not so in our reality (as the Newsweek writers spell my views out on that). I am indifferent to sixth political position on Stalin’s gulags of our reality
She should not have been cancelled because of it because canceling her because of it is almost as bad as the tweet itself
PC
I do not believe Adriana Lima should be an ambassador for Victoria’s Secret. Women like Adriana Lima should be ambassadors for Victoria’s secret
I am against NGO Imperialism
Individualism is the perfect counter to racism
A Christian Arab actress should have been given the role of Cleopatra instead of an Israeli actress
Say what you will about Russia but at the very least they should get brownie points for being anti woke and anti west
People have a right to be different
2022 — "The word 'misinformation' is too often used in today's political discourse as a way to completely discount your opponent's position.
I support a participative democracy
I m against Depoliticlization
I support a unity of diverse transformative forces and make sure they are independent of corporate power.
anti pol witch hunt
I promote an inclusive (in my my personal view of inclusive) country, that is respectful of the environment and safeguards social rights like education and healthcare
I support Chile rewriting the Augusto Pinochet constitution
I support free college tuition only if these 3 conditions are met: 1) kids who want free tuition when they turn 18 have to do ‘kids jobs’ a few hours a week like selling lemonade at a lemonade stand , selling cookies door to door or similar kids jobs to make up for their future free education AND 2) if we expanded work based learning systems for high school students so they are prepared for life after high school/college/grad school and since it adds more work for them in school sort of making up for them being deprived of working more hours in school. I am also open to a K-10 model reducing the span of school to get young people ready to work
This includes using nuanced ideas to help teachers do their jobs without worrying about the left firing them for not towing the line. Focusing on restorative justice and building community relations. Along with increased funding for vocational training, socio emotional learning. This would include, trauma support, change adjustment, loss, economic vulnerability and similar hinderances to their success.
Moreover addressing holes in our graduation rates where they exist, finding and applying new pathways to keep students and young people engaged while as mentioned above preparing them for the future. We must use philosophy over money to achieve this. New ideas to do these things is a must. AND 3) The government offers incentives for students to skip college in some situations
I support economic balance, decommodification, human passion, love of nature, and in general economic science,
All economic life implies the mediation of a large range of cultural institutions and juridical means. Today, the economy must be recontextualized within life, society, politics and ethics.
I am Anti Productivism,
I am against the original fake news opration mockingbird
Labor has never been at the core of most past societies, since it is out of necessity not out of freedom. Work is the means to get something instead of the means itself
Productivity and modernity has made work self valuing , the main method of socialization, illusory emancipation (freedom through work) and individual autonomy all for resource mobilization.
This heteronomous work is functional , monetized and logical. It makes workers work for need instead of want. It only is meaningful for financial gain and spending power
Production increases consumption, which forces the need for work comp since work has been increasingly monetized which in turn forces workers to work for others to pay those who work for them. Free reciprocating of services has vanished in a world where nothing has value but everything has a price. It is a salaried society where people have to work to make ends meet.
With automation a real threat we need UBI to counter this.
More productivity means more unemployment which destabilizes society’s structures. Productivity favors Capital which use workers who are not employed and job relocation (add future) to weaken the salaried workers’ bargaining powers. Workers today are sadly heavily exploited and rendered increasingly meaningless causing isolation in a evil world where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
Even with productivism and the slow march to the closing of an bygone era where salary payment is the primary means of social integration
Reducing the work week flies in the face of the biblical value “You will labor by the sweat of your brow”
However, bargained reductions of the work week and the concomitant increase of new workers to share their work is something we need to encourage along with flexible changes (sabbaticals, leaves, training etc) for all heteronomous type of job. This means less work for better work and more time for better life.
We must gradually dissociate work from income due to increased buying power and allure of goods.
Most forms of Capitalism only care about appropriating money and earning money which is its ultimate aim.
It wants to turn a buck at the expense of people (long term) and is a threat to our national fiscal systems
This was ushered in via low hanging and easy to gey credit, spec bubbles and big spec (big speculation, mutually funded speculation profits), usury , foreign unreliable investors, indebtedness of people etc.
Capital’s ubiquity allows it to have political control. This causes an extremely uncertain fiscal systems causing bubbles and bursts now and again and hurting the financial world.
Macroeconomics are bad because they don’t reveal society’s true condition ,as tragedies etc are counted as positive due to them ‘stimulating’ the economy (gun stocks up after shootings)
High and mighty richness has a twisted goal of growing bigger by exploiting and benefiting (capitalizing) on inequalities and struggles so we need to once again put the economy in a sub-servant position to the individual and QOL.
To do this we need: a international tax on all fiscal transactions, erasing the debt of third world countries, fixing the whole development system of economics etc
We should prioritize self reliance-suffiency and help meet the needs that markets have regionally, nationally, and inwardly. We must abolish the international system of the division of labor. We must liberate local economies from big bank (ie IMF and the World Bank). We need worldwide enactment of environmental laws to protect our planet. Our goal needs to be fighting the logger heads of uneffective government and super competitive market economies. This can be done by strengthening co ops, mutual societies, partnerships etc) along
Submission statement: This week, Paypal froze the accounts of Toby Young, a British right-wing journalist and bête noire of liberals. Seemingly, Paypal took the decision on political grounds. Surprisingly, many liberals have defended Paypal.
Why can’t liberals recognize the dangers of corporations engaging in censorship? For example, firms have undertaken many of the acts which have eroded Hungarian democracy. Where does this stop? Is it legitimate to deprive Young of electricity and a mobile phone?
When partisans use freedom of speech as a weapon, only demanding it for colleagues, the principle withers, liberal democracy surely following. Whatever one’s opinion of Young, Paypal’s act has undermined liberal democracy. Friends of liberty should oppose it.
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lemmsjid
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1 mo. ago
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Liberal here! Paypal has not disclosed why they banned the accounts, so this is all speculation and far from an 'assault on liberal democracy'. I wouldn't mind if Paypal and payment companies were legally required to disclose or submit to arbitrage why they are denying services to clients. I have a feeling such a law would actually be more opposed by right wingers than left wingers, though I could be wrong. I do actually believe that the Internet and key Internet services should be regulated as public utilities, not as private enterprise. While laws vary by location, a public utility that denies service to an individual must generally meet a standard to prove that the individual simply did not pay for the utility.
The article you link to, in the New Stateman, is not exactly supporting the ban, so much as pointing out that government legislation to force private companies to not discriminate on ideological grounds would probably be quite controversial amongst free market capitalists as well as liberals, because it would move a lot more corporations, like Twitter, Paypal, etc., closer to being considered utilities rather than private enterprises.
Let's assume that the Telegraph's *speculation* that Paypal banned the accounts due to Covid misinformation is correct. I wasn't familiar with Toby Young, so I did some digging, and found that he did indeed, in at least one situation, seemingly willfully misrepresent a study on vaccine efficacy, in such as a way as to make it seem like vaccines were counter productive. Multiple fact checkers called independently called out his statement as false. And as far as I can tell, it was indeed a bad faith statement, taking a publicly available study, but, as often happens, knowing that people won't actually read it, and misrepresenting its results. Personally I've seen this happen quite often during Covid, and such statements get parroted by a disappointingly large number of people.
There is a very blurry line between free speech and fraud, and it isn't easy to draw a line in situations such as the above. I generally believe that a company should have very stringent, drawn out and high standards for denying service due to such disputes. If it turns out that Paypal whimsically denied service to this person without any internal accountability or due process, that would indeed look bad in my liberal eyeballs
values
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